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	<title>Comments for Redeemer Church,  Santa Maria, CA</title>
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	<link>http://discoveredeemer.com</link>
	<description>Discover the Difference</description>
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		<title>Comment on The Presbyterian Guardian now online! by The Presbyterian Guardian is Back &#171; Heidelblog</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-432</link>
		<dc:creator>The Presbyterian Guardian is Back &#171; Heidelblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=262#comment-432</guid>
		<description>[...] The Presbyterian Guardian is&#160;Back  Posted on July 10, 2010 by R. Scott Clark   Well, the back issues are now available online (HT: Josh Martin) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Presbyterian Guardian is&nbsp;Back  Posted on July 10, 2010 by R. Scott Clark   Well, the back issues are now available online (HT: Josh Martin) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Forgotten Edwards by Joshua Martin</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=251&#038;cpage=1#comment-345</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 16:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=251#comment-345</guid>
		<description>My sketch of Edwards&#039; time at Stockbridge should be covered by any reliable biography of Edwards. I recall that even Iain Murray&#039;s biography has much of the same emphasis that I outlined. I recommend George Marsden&#039;s massive &quot;Jonathan Edwards: A Life&quot; (chapter 23). He will direct you to the primary source documentation. 

I don&#039;t know what specifically you regard as revisionist. But say, for example, you are tripping over my claim that Edwards at Stockbridge was more forbearing with the sins of his congregation. This is illustrated by his attitude toward his interpreter John Wauwaumpequunnaunt. Edwards had a great regard for JW, especially for his understanding of Scripture and theology, but was also aware of JW&#039;s weakness for alcohol (Works 16:451-52, 476). This is also illustrated by the change in preaching style - especially after his first year (see Wheeler&#039;s analysis in &quot;Living upon Hope&quot; pp 131-207).

For a broader view of Edwards&#039; time at Stockbridge see Frazier&#039;s &quot;The Mohicans of Stockbridge&quot; which is unquestionably the definitive history of the Stockbridge Indians during this period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My sketch of Edwards&#8217; time at Stockbridge should be covered by any reliable biography of Edwards. I recall that even Iain Murray&#8217;s biography has much of the same emphasis that I outlined. I recommend George Marsden&#8217;s massive &#8220;Jonathan Edwards: A Life&#8221; (chapter 23). He will direct you to the primary source documentation. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what specifically you regard as revisionist. But say, for example, you are tripping over my claim that Edwards at Stockbridge was more forbearing with the sins of his congregation. This is illustrated by his attitude toward his interpreter John Wauwaumpequunnaunt. Edwards had a great regard for JW, especially for his understanding of Scripture and theology, but was also aware of JW&#8217;s weakness for alcohol (Works 16:451-52, 476). This is also illustrated by the change in preaching style &#8211; especially after his first year (see Wheeler&#8217;s analysis in &#8220;Living upon Hope&#8221; pp 131-207).</p>
<p>For a broader view of Edwards&#8217; time at Stockbridge see Frazier&#8217;s &#8220;The Mohicans of Stockbridge&#8221; which is unquestionably the definitive history of the Stockbridge Indians during this period.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Forgotten Edwards by Eliza</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=251&#038;cpage=1#comment-344</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 11:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=251#comment-344</guid>
		<description>Can you provide sources for this post? 
I&#039;ve read most everything Edwards has written and this sounds revisionist to me!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you provide sources for this post?<br />
I&#8217;ve read most everything Edwards has written and this sounds revisionist to me!!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Forgotten Edwards by Second and Third Thoughts on Edwards &#171; Heidelblog</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=251&#038;cpage=1#comment-341</link>
		<dc:creator>Second and Third Thoughts on Edwards &#171; Heidelblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 18:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=251#comment-341</guid>
		<description>[...] Second and Third Thoughts on&#160;Edwards  Posted on May 4, 2010 by R. Scott Clark   Few figures are as electrifying and divisive in the study of American religious history as Jonathan Edwards. To many he is and can be only St Jonathan, the paradigm of theology, piety, and practice. To others the story is more complicated. It is difficult to get a balanced view of Edwards&#8217; theology and legacy. WSC grad and OPC Pastor Joshua Martin has written a couple of thoughtful and helpful posts on Edwards which are a good example of ways to approach him. Here is the first and here is the follow-on post. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Second and Third Thoughts on&nbsp;Edwards  Posted on May 4, 2010 by R. Scott Clark   Few figures are as electrifying and divisive in the study of American religious history as Jonathan Edwards. To many he is and can be only St Jonathan, the paradigm of theology, piety, and practice. To others the story is more complicated. It is difficult to get a balanced view of Edwards&#8217; theology and legacy. WSC grad and OPC Pastor Joshua Martin has written a couple of thoughtful and helpful posts on Edwards which are a good example of ways to approach him. Here is the first and here is the follow-on post. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Saved by His Life by John Brigham</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237&#038;cpage=1#comment-336</link>
		<dc:creator>John Brigham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 01:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237#comment-336</guid>
		<description>Josh, I would put it a slightly different way:

Jesus was qualified to be the spotless sacrifice the moment He was conceived because He was divine by nature, rather than succeeding through a checklist of tests and qualifications that He endured during His lifetime. His successful life then should be seen as a confirmation of who He was from the beginning. I bring this up because it shows that the merit that Jesus had was had from the beginning, instead of earning a slow building up of meritorious works which could be dispensed to His children later. 

And I would rewrite what you said like this... to affirm the “entire obedience” or “entire righteousness” of Christ is the same thing as affirming his “active obedience and passive obedience.” 

And ... neither of us would say that His active obedience ONLY qualified Him

Finally, are you sure you mean this:
&quot;...through his death and resurrection we receive both the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness.&quot;
...because it looks like you are saying that the passive obedience imputes righteousness to us. I think you want to say BOTH AO and PO complete His work. If so, we can throw out Shepherd and Machen as 3rd rate quancks....!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, I would put it a slightly different way:</p>
<p>Jesus was qualified to be the spotless sacrifice the moment He was conceived because He was divine by nature, rather than succeeding through a checklist of tests and qualifications that He endured during His lifetime. His successful life then should be seen as a confirmation of who He was from the beginning. I bring this up because it shows that the merit that Jesus had was had from the beginning, instead of earning a slow building up of meritorious works which could be dispensed to His children later. </p>
<p>And I would rewrite what you said like this&#8230; to affirm the “entire obedience” or “entire righteousness” of Christ is the same thing as affirming his “active obedience and passive obedience.” </p>
<p>And &#8230; neither of us would say that His active obedience ONLY qualified Him</p>
<p>Finally, are you sure you mean this:<br />
&#8220;&#8230;through his death and resurrection we receive both the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness.&#8221;<br />
&#8230;because it looks like you are saying that the passive obedience imputes righteousness to us. I think you want to say BOTH AO and PO complete His work. If so, we can throw out Shepherd and Machen as 3rd rate quancks&#8230;.!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Saved by His Life by Joshua Martin</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237&#038;cpage=1#comment-335</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 16:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237#comment-335</guid>
		<description>John, The problem is that some suggest that Jesus&#039; righteousness only qualified him to be the spotless sacrifice, and that that redemption that we receive from Christ is limited to the forgiveness of sins with no imputation of his righteousness to our account. Those who suggest this are making a sharp divide between Christ&#039;s active and passive obedience and suggesting that only the passive benefits us directly in our redemption. Against this understanding Reformed theology affirms that the entire obedience of Christ was for us, and that through his death and resurrection we receive both the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. Therefore, to affirm the &quot;entire obedience&quot; or &quot;entire righteousness&quot; of Christ is the same thing as affirming his &quot;active obedience.&quot; My reading of Shepherd is that he affirmed the former while Machen affirmed the latter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, The problem is that some suggest that Jesus&#8217; righteousness only qualified him to be the spotless sacrifice, and that that redemption that we receive from Christ is limited to the forgiveness of sins with no imputation of his righteousness to our account. Those who suggest this are making a sharp divide between Christ&#8217;s active and passive obedience and suggesting that only the passive benefits us directly in our redemption. Against this understanding Reformed theology affirms that the entire obedience of Christ was for us, and that through his death and resurrection we receive both the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. Therefore, to affirm the &#8220;entire obedience&#8221; or &#8220;entire righteousness&#8221; of Christ is the same thing as affirming his &#8220;active obedience.&#8221; My reading of Shepherd is that he affirmed the former while Machen affirmed the latter.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Saved by His Life by John Brigham</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237&#038;cpage=1#comment-334</link>
		<dc:creator>John Brigham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 15:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237#comment-334</guid>
		<description>Josh,

I am in complete agreement! Maybe you are misunderstanding me; I have no desire or reason to make this separation and am using it only because some others have insisted upon this distinction as a rule of orthodoxy.

I will agree not to make a distinction any more if I am not asked to defend a distinction.

I am also wondering why Shepherd, Machen, and others can see a clear distinction when we cannot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh,</p>
<p>I am in complete agreement! Maybe you are misunderstanding me; I have no desire or reason to make this separation and am using it only because some others have insisted upon this distinction as a rule of orthodoxy.</p>
<p>I will agree not to make a distinction any more if I am not asked to defend a distinction.</p>
<p>I am also wondering why Shepherd, Machen, and others can see a clear distinction when we cannot.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Saved by His Life by Joshua Martin</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237&#038;cpage=1#comment-331</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237#comment-331</guid>
		<description>Hi John, this separation exists in the theories of the Arminians and folks like Shepherd. And I am still trying to figure out why, if you don&#039;t want to separate active and passive, you insist on reading references to the obedience or righteousness of Christ as referring only to his passive obedience! What evidence do you have for reading it this way? Rather, we should confess that the entire righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer in Justification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John, this separation exists in the theories of the Arminians and folks like Shepherd. And I am still trying to figure out why, if you don&#8217;t want to separate active and passive, you insist on reading references to the obedience or righteousness of Christ as referring only to his passive obedience! What evidence do you have for reading it this way? Rather, we should confess that the entire righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer in Justification.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Saved by His Life by John Brigham</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237&#038;cpage=1#comment-330</link>
		<dc:creator>John Brigham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 05:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=237#comment-330</guid>
		<description>Josh,

You refer to WCF Q7, above:

Westminster Larger Cat q. 70, “Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which he pardoneth all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in his sight; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them [my emphasis], and received by faith alone” (Compare also L. Cat q. 77, S. Cat. Q. 33, WCF 11.1). 

But this answer still doesn&#039;t distinguish whether the obedience referred to is Christ&#039;s active or passive obedience! It appears ambiguous the way it is used here, as compared to the way you are wanting to use it in your essay.

The most that can be said is that the two types of obedience cannot be made somehow separate - but of course, this separation only exists in the theories of the learned theologian!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh,</p>
<p>You refer to WCF Q7, above:</p>
<p>Westminster Larger Cat q. 70, “Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which he pardoneth all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in his sight; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them [my emphasis], and received by faith alone” (Compare also L. Cat q. 77, S. Cat. Q. 33, WCF 11.1). </p>
<p>But this answer still doesn&#8217;t distinguish whether the obedience referred to is Christ&#8217;s active or passive obedience! It appears ambiguous the way it is used here, as compared to the way you are wanting to use it in your essay.</p>
<p>The most that can be said is that the two types of obedience cannot be made somehow separate &#8211; but of course, this separation only exists in the theories of the learned theologian!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Forgotten Edwards by Redeemer Church, Santa Maria, CA &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Second Thoughts on the Great Awakening</title>
		<link>http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=251&#038;cpage=1#comment-329</link>
		<dc:creator>Redeemer Church, Santa Maria, CA &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Second Thoughts on the Great Awakening</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://discoveredeemer.com/?p=251#comment-329</guid>
		<description>[...] Part 2: The Forgotten Edwards  Filed under: Uncategorized &#124; Tags: Calvinism, Great Awakening, Johnathan Edwards, Revival  You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.   &#171; Previous post Next post &#187; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Part 2: The Forgotten Edwards  Filed under: Uncategorized | Tags: Calvinism, Great Awakening, Johnathan Edwards, Revival  You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.   &laquo; Previous post Next post &raquo; [...]</p>
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